Issues of sexuality and madness predominant the next section of the play. In a few sentences, give me your opinion of the role of these topics and what you think Euripides may be suggesting in the confrontation between manly Pentheus and effeminate Dionysus. Think about various things. Some examples might be like what place do the woman have in Pentheus' city? What opinion of women does Pentheus himself hold? Why might Dionysus be the androgynous deity? Why might women more than men need to go mad? What do you make of the actions of the woman in their ecstatic state?
See ya soon,
Dr. Layne
Pentheus does not consider the women of his city to have power but under Dionysus’ spell they have garnered strength. Through their madness, Pentheus realizes they do have power, even power over him, he becomes captivated by their behavior and wishes to see their frenzy up close. Pentheus dresses in female attire so he is not recognized and can see the festivities. The women of Pentheus’ city needed this release most because of built up feelings of inadequacy in a male dominated society. In Ancient Greek society, women did not play a role in politics and were confined to household duties. In Ancient Greece, the ideal for a woman was to be heard of only twice: at her marriage and at her death. The madness Dionysus instills in the women is evident in this section and is central to the story. "You could see a woman with a bellowing calf actually in her grip, tearing it apart. Others ripped young cows to pieces". This scene of madness shows how the women have lost touch with rationality. I believe Euripides is trying to show that a harmony between rationality and irrationality and a harmony between man and woman are needed.
ReplyDeleteDionysus is both beautiful and fearful, he is divine and human Being the son of a god but born to a human woman. He allows men to escape through wine, theater and sex but this escape can quickly turn sour. There is no limit to how far and how dark this human excess can go and in that humans have the ability to lose their humanity while intoxicated by Dionysus. In The Bacchae there is this constant tension of the balance of freedom and control. There are other moments of duality, when characters change sexes or how the chorus seems to almost be at odds with the play itself. But from what I have read so far it seems that control and freedom are both mechanisms for power and social restraint. With these dualities also comes the role of women in The Bacchae. The women seem to have been thrust out of their homes (usual roles) and are put into a very promiscuous position. Gender seems to get distorted wherever Dionysus touches it.
ReplyDeleteDionysus views sex and madness as positive and necessary actions in everyday life, especially for woman as a way from letting go of their everyday troubles and enjoying the moment. But Pentheus thinks totally different. Not only does he disagree with Dionysus's view on sex and madness but he also views woman as not having an immense amount of power in society and as individuals, elements that Dionysus strongly supports. The confrontation of Dionysus and Pentheus symbolizes the struggle between woman and men in everyday lives to see aspects of society and life on the same level, such as SEX (an act which men feel they are inferior to women).
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWomen have a very miniscule amount of power in Pentheus' city. Imagine being amongst those inferior yo you but never being able to interject, because staying silent was your role in society, such as being a female in Pentheus' city. Through Dionysus, Euripides is suggesting that females need to go mad and lose themselves in sex in order to stay sane, for Dionysus among other things is the god of Orgy and festival. Euripides is also suggesting that women need this more then men, because of their role in society.
ReplyDeleteBrian Fleischer
One of the underlying themes in the book is about the “double nature of man.” I think this is one of the things Euripides suggests in the confrontation between Pentheus and Dionysus as well as with the women of Thebes. All the characters in the book, in one way or another, seemed to be “trapped” in this persona that they had to escape. It was most evident with the women being that their role in society during that time was pretty much null and void. It was mainly the men that took on leading role in all aspects of society while the women took a back seat. So, it didn’t surprise me that they were Dionysus’s first targets to disrupt the social order. He gave them a power to become something other than themselves. A role were they could “let loose” and enjoy nature’s offerings without a care or worry in the world. What struck me the most was Pentheus’ transformation. It sort of seemed like when he gave into Dionysus’s plan of dressing like a woman to spy on the Maenads, he too did it to let down his guard and experience another role other than his stern, manly persona. He boasted about dressing in drag and showing off while the whole time, Dionysus’s intensions were to make a fool of him, which in the end he did.
ReplyDeleteI think that Dionysus represents the "other" in our psyche, or the secret parts of ourselves that we do not show. This is exampled as that he is both mortal but god, a man but femininine, etc. The women have had their other sides released--independent, ferocious, and joyful. And even Pentheus is having another part of his psyche shown--his irrationality (after being decieved by illusions) and "feminine" character (by dressing as a woman).
ReplyDeleteWomen obviously were not very powerful in Thebes during this time. Pentheus clearly does not view women as his equals, unlike Dionysus who is more of an androgynous character himself. It makes sense that Dionysus would aim at the Maenads to disrupt the social order, because they were neglected in the city of Thebes. Because they were repressed for as long as they could remember, once they got the chance to "let loose" it was extremely foreign thus they became wild. The women became so out of control because they had been told they were inadequate and that males are the more dominant, intelligent race.
ReplyDeleteWomen have a low place in the society of Thebes and in Pentheus's own views. At first, Pentheus is disturbed by the maenads' sexuality and madness. However, he becomes intruiged after their sexuality and madness leads to a kind of power for the women. This may be to show that Pentheus's controlled society is in need of Dionysus's madness.
ReplyDeleteIt makes sense that Dionysus would have women go mad instead of men because he is androgynous deity. He believes madness and freedom are positives. For Dionysus the women have been held down by their male counterparts just as he has been held back by restricted worship to him. Because of this Dionysus gives the women complete ecstatic states of mind to "free" them.
Thinking of the women's crazy antics, I can't help but think of one of the only episode of True Blood I've seen when two of the characters are mentally taken control of by a demon (I think?), where they go in the woods and dance naked, have sex with everyone who's there, and (if I remember correctly) end up attacking animals, and they have no memory of it the next day. In the show, the demon goes to say that all she' doing is allowing people to go with their natural instincts and to be who they really are, not some emotionally and physically trapped people. I feel as though Dionyus is the demon in this case. He places them under this spell, and they immediately begin to see the world differently and act as they normally would not do because they are so restricted by Pentheus. Basically, under Dionyus' spell the women are able to break from restraint, but how much freedom is too much?
ReplyDeleteDionysus comes to Thebes and spurs on change regarding woman's place in society. Pentheus sees this as a threat to the natural order of things in Thebes. Dionysus urges his followers to act outside of themselves, as if the social norms didn't apply anymore. Women are the ideal target for Dionysus because they are the most vulnerable to any new idea or belief that advocates being truly free. I see Dionysus' androgyny fitting the ascetic of the entire Maenad way of life.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Dionysus is making Pentheus question his own manhood. Dionysus, a very feminine figure, has better control of the people compared to Pentheus. Like many people in this time Pentheus didn't have a very high opinion of women. And like Sara(above) said, women were repressed for so long when they do let loose, all that restraint comes forward.
ReplyDeleteIn greek society, women held no political power and were left to taking care of the household. Dionysus gave women certain power because they were able to let go and escape the entrapment they felt under Pentheus' rule. The confrontation comes about because Pentheus and Dionysus represent two different types of power. Pentheus represents control and society's conservative views, while Dionysus represents the power of freedom, sex, and madness. Although Pentheus does not agree with the actions of the women, this new power intrigues him.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDionysus represents a sort of freedom from the law and regularity that Pentheus implements in his kingdom. Dionysus brings wine and whimsy to women, which is not what Pentheus wants in his city. Though after the messenger tells Pentheus of the tale of these three bands of women, he is persuaded to see them, but with hesitation and armor. This suggests that Pentheus is scared of women who are not necessarily in their place within the kingdom, but he is even more nervous about trusting Dionysus. Dionysus shows the women that he was not able to be bound by Pentheus, and this may have had some kind of effect on the women to suggest that his rules, as well as the rules of men in general, should not be able to bind them either.
ReplyDeleteThe most prevalent issue involving sexuality and madness in this portion of the play I think occurs in the sexual role confusion that Dionysian madness invokes, and the disturbing implications this confusion has for the female's role in Greek society. First and foremost, it is important to note that women are the most common participants in the Bacchanalian festivals, and that they are participating presumably only because Dionysus had hypnotized them into their "madness." Also, the most divulged transgression these women commit that makes Pentheus angry is their sexual openness and nudity. In fact, he is even committed to enslaving women he already captured from the Bacchanalian rituals before he even hears the story his scouts tell him about the women eating wild animals and befriending snakes. The reason I point these details out is because they highlight an important distinction between sexuality and madness that women in in this play face: the women, even when they are considered most uncivil or "mad," are never as powerful as the men. It seems that Dionysus is giving the women social power by distorting their identities and modifying their behavior, but really what he is doing is using the women as political tools to sexually frustrate Pentheus and thus force him to "spy on them." While the sexual power their madness induces seems obvious, it is only obviated by the common misconception that womens' power is derived sexually, and thus, as in the play, is the only way they can evince change from men (who, by the way, are the only speaking characters in the play). If all this isn't more of a reason for women to go mad then men, then I don't know what is.
ReplyDeletePentheus said that the women possessed no power, but they soon became more powerful than Pentheus when put under Dionysus' spell. I think that more women than men went mad because they were always talked about as if they were nothing. So I think for them never having a say so or never being able to express their opinion would make them go mad. I think the women's actions while under the spell is an example of them just letting go and showing that they do have power.
ReplyDeleteI believe that women in the Ancient Greek society are valued primarily for their beauty and reproductive powers; although as we have seen, some women (such as the goddesses) are quite strong and influential. I feel as though the women in Greek society are somewhat oppressed, and as a result they are enticed by Dionysus' antics. The women are seduced into partaking of the songs, dances, orgies, and intoxication as a sort of escape from their daily lives. In a world where men hold positions of authority, and where women are typically at the mercy of men (particularly, sexually), Dinoysus exemplifies the need for women to let go and satisfy themselves without being subject to the whims of men.
ReplyDeleteWith sexuality and madness, I believe Euripides is trying to showing the constant present connection between the two. The common denominator between the two is passion. It is passion that insinuates the increases the desire to be sexually connected to another. Also, passion is responsible for people going mad as well. Just think about the level of intensity one has during sexual exchange, it can be compared to how one becomes mad as well. In the text, I would title Dionysius as sexuality and Pentheus as madness. Both characters are inflicted with passion and desire to fulfill their goal. Even in the case of women: Dionysius loves them (they worship him!) and Pentheus is willing to kill them (because they clearly are focusing more on Dionysius than him). The fact that Pentheus' commands are ignored would be a clear example of how men go mad. However, women need to go mad because so often are women burdened by the domestic role. Women need to have some sort of escape from the male-dominated society.
ReplyDeleteIn Bacchae, the cult of Dionysus allows the women to be "liberated" from the restrains of the patriarchy. The Latin phrase "In vino veritas" applies to the women participating in the Bachhae: the women who were already promiscuous still would've been promiscuous at the cult, just less inhibited about it. Compare this to how normal people's personalities will do a complete 180 when given anonymitiy (e.g. any given chatroom).Also, having the power paradigm shift from man to woman, especially how this translation phrases it, is apparently controversial enough for Pentheus to send in his army.
ReplyDeleteI think the role of these topics is important to the story because it appears as though Dionysus is giving women the freedom they so rightfully deserve since they are so use to staying chained up and following orders. They now have their own freedom to be more sexually explicit.
ReplyDeleteThe women of Thebes prior to Dionysus had little power or role in society. After Dionysus invoked a spell on the town, women began to use their true strength and sexual nature. Pentheus realizes that women now have a substantial amount of power and he himself disguises as a woman. Pentheus truly shows how powerful women have become by trying to make himself apear as one. Women before the spell did not go mad or express their sexual nature publicly. Now these sheltered women are acting freely with passion and madness.
ReplyDeleteThe role of women in Pantheus' city is very minimal. They are subjected to domestic work. They have no influence over political or any state matter. Pentheus sees women as domestic people. He does not hold them to a higher ground. When the women go made under Dionysus spell, Pentheus realizes what the women can actually become. Women do need to go mad more than men in this society because they seem oppressed. While men are allowed to do whatever they please, women are constrained. The women need to let go of themselves from their daily life. The women in their frenzied state is somewhat expected I believe because they have never experienced anything like this before. Dionysus' spell allows these women to come to a state of mind that men feel in everyday society in Pentheus' city.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it... women were not really well respected in the olden days, which probabaly meant that they were repressed and angry. If they do not have any real significances and Dionysus allows them to free themselves through wine and sex.. well why not? It is a chance for women to do what they want and let go of the anger or repressed feelings they have. Though Pentheus does not have the same views as Dionysus believes. He sees the power that women were gaining through Dionysus and he could see the passion that were burning in the women. They need to free themselves from everyday repression and daily life to keep themselves from truly going mad and enjoy the fire that keeps them going.
ReplyDeleteI think that Pentheus is denying the women's rights to the freedom that Dionysus provided and it drives the women crazy. Dionysus represents freedom from rules and regulations allowing people to release any sexual tensions. I think the women's actions was odd but it may have been a way for them to release their stress. Women seemed to go crazy instead of the men because they enjoyed the freedom Dionysus provided more than men. This may be due to the fact that women in this time may feel more constrained than men. They can be free to do what they want and not be doing chores and staying home.
ReplyDeleteSubordination is a heavy weight. The women of this society have a lot of pent up pressure and stress because of their strict and low expectations. Their role is both explicitly defined and under-credited, they therefore need release.
ReplyDeleteDionysus's androgyny allows for a universal appeal. Dionysus is not a symbol of the male experience, nor the female experience; but is simply a symbol of pleasure. Dionysus is catharsis.
"It is an examination of a problem that weighed heavily on the Greek mind: the conflict of passion and reason and the necessity of striking a balance between the two.” (page vi)
ReplyDeleteIn Euripides’ Bacchae Pentheus represents yielding to reason, while the god Dionysus represents yielding to passion (sexuality and madness). The conflict between the two (reason & passion) leads me to believe that when Dionysus puts a spell on the women in Pentheus’ society, that it isn’t really about the women. Yes, they are the most susceptible to fall into the trance because of their inferior, bound place in society, but the god mainly wants to teach them a lesson, not free them. As he states, “seek to make atonement to me, for Semele, mine outraged mother…soon will I terribly show that I am born a God: and so depart to other lands making dread revelation of myself.” (2) Therefore, I think Dionysus is yielding to his own passion by forcing the women to worship him while under his spell. He sees them acknowledge him for once, as well as tear Pentheus (reason) to pieces while overcome by outlandish desires. Dionysus doesn’t choose the women to irradiate because he respects them more or wants to free them; rather, he uses their inferiority to satisfy his personal desire for vengeance. Agave’s (Pentheus’ mother) becomes horrified and is full of regret when after she brags about killing her son, realizes what she has done while intoxicated by Dionysus’ spell. Although Agave (just as all the women) felt free at first, her response reinforces the idea that balance is needed, rather than total pursuit of either passion or reason.
Women in Thebes do not have an esteemed role in society because they are only seen as a means for childbirth and raising children. Pentheus shows that he agrees with this idea through his actions in the play.
ReplyDeleteDuring the play we notice that women are not allowed to do anything they want--however, men are free to do whatever they fancy. Dionysus, the god of wine, pleasure, music, etc., puts a spell on the women. This spell allows the women to experience how men feel everyday in the community. Thus, Dionysus gives them freedom. Once the women realize what they've been missing, they go crazy.
In my opinion, Dionysus is androgenic because:
1. Since he is the god of sex, wine, music, pleasure, etc., he seems masculine. I believe this because sex, pleasure, wine, etc., are considered to be normal for men to enjoy. If a woman were to enjoy these things on a regular basis she would be looked down upon or considered a "whore".
2. Dionysus is feminine because he allowed the women to experience what the men do. Thus, he must have some empathy for them.
Euripides is making a statement about the roles of masculinity and femininity, or the powerful and powerless. The role of heros, politicians, wise thinkers and any other decision makers are always fulfilled by a man and women play a defenseless role. Pentheus considers the women in Thebes his slaves and doing anything they will would be "being slave of mine own slave," he said. But women in all social stations act as slaves to all men in Pentheus' city, not just to the king. They need some sort of relief, to go out of control and get out of that mold that men and society set for them. Is it worse to have someone else tell you who you are or to choose to become such a slave to society and then realize it afterwards?
ReplyDeleteEither way, the women go mad, ripping the cows apart. This is an interesting visual, since the most typical humble, peaceful role women are often thought of as doing is milking a cow. The messenger who reports this to Pentheus said their only source of relief for the women is the fountain of wine, which dulls them to the monotony of their lives and awakens their real desires.
In Ancient Greece, women had very few political and social rights. By Dionysus giving women this sexual empowerment, he gives them a brand new form of control and freedom. HIs femininity as well as his divinity allows him to have empathy for the women in this society that is so foreign from ours today. He is allowing women to have a much more fulfilling role, while they are being strongly influenced by his power. Dionysus is not a symbol for masculinity nor femininity, but more of a symbol of sensual indulgence. Under Pentheus, women had "no power", but under Dionysus they feel liberated and inspired.
ReplyDeleteNow that Dionysus has entered the scene in Thebes, issues with the people have gone crazy. Women, who are meant to keep quiet and run a household, are now drinking, dancing and having sex. They are so intoxicated with the idea of pleasure that they have lost all self control. Dionysus is the god of please, drinking and sex. He therefore encourages such behavior.
ReplyDeletePentheus, on the other hand, believes that women should remain under men, without any voice on political or worldly views. Pentheus is outraged when he sees the behavior of the women in his city. He is the grandson of Cadmus, and it is his duty to keep his people under control. While he claims to be totally against the behavior of the women, he is still intrigued and dresses as a women, in order that he might witness first hand what all this madness is about.
Dionysus and Pentheus resemble two different strengths and leadership qualities. Dionysus is a god of pleasure. He believes that his people should "party is up" in order to remain sane. He does encourage order or proper behavior. Pentheus is the opposite. He believes in order, rules to go by, proper behavior (especially in women) and desires to keep his city in peaceful with out such madness as going on currently in this story.
In this story, Euripides is obviously making a statement about the roles of men and women during the time in which he lived. Euripides doesn't value women as much as men. Pentheus looks down upon women. He views them as his servants/slaves. Also, women seem to be only valued for giving birth to children. Women are treated as inferior individuals so i do believe they have a right to be angry. (As when the woman ripped open the cow's calf)
ReplyDeleteIn Dionysus imposing this irrationality among the women, he is essentially allowing them to act freely and indulge in these pleasures. Something they are not allowed to do under Pentheus' rule where women hold no power or specific rights. This sudden freedom clouds their reality and inhibits their self control. Pentheus does not agree that women should have these freedoms and that men should hold all of the power. In the book, Euripides links power with madness but also makes a crucial link between over-indulgence of pleasure and madness. Attributions such as power and pleasure should be used in moderation or society cannot function properly.
ReplyDeleteEuripides shows two perspectives on the role of women, how they are supposed to act and the true freedom of women. Euripides shows the philosophy that women represent irrationality while the men are logical in his play. Pentheus thinks that women should not have the power to be equal to men. In fact, society sees women as child bearers and raisers. However, Dionysus shows a different side of women when he puts them in a delirious state of mind. This emphasizes the suppressive role of women. Which is why women need to be more mad than men. They are no longer a subject to the power of men but a threat to them.
ReplyDeleteI think Dionysus represents the caged bird inside of us all. Sex, alcohol and letting go of all inhibitions in general, are things I think all men (and women) crave but are limited to do so by the rules of society. Euripides, in Dionysus' actions, shows us the joy's of this perhaps..."selfish" pleasure, but also that men like Penteus will always be in society, and with Dionysus's punishment, there are consequences... very real consequenes... for going against the thread.
ReplyDeletePentheus has little care or concern for women in his kingdom as long as they are acting according the cultural and governmental law. When Dionysus comes in as the stranger and the maenads come about, this is another cause of friction between the two. Through the maenads, women have the power to do as they please without a man telling them how they should act. They can run around naked, drink like men, have sex as they please and give in to all those temptations that the dominant culture says a woman shouldn't give into. They for the first time in their lives are free; they are able to commit to what they want to instead of being told to or what to. This ecstatic state could be this overwhelming joy of being free.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn Ancient Greece, women had very few rights. Women were seen as objects for sex and breeding and were given no power whatsoever. Pentheus is disturbed when he sees the women of Thebes discovering a new power, discovering the idea of pleasure and the loss of worry.
ReplyDeleteBecause they loose control so quickly, Euripides seems to be saying that women have to be reined in and have to be controlled in order for chaos and madness not to happen. If you give a woman the idea of pleasure and the freedom to use it, the world will ultimately go topsy turvy.
It seems understandable that Euripides would write that because he, like most men in Ancient Greece believe that the woman is inferior.
Ripping cows apart seems like a pretty hefty visual. I believe that women are ripping them apart because they believe that the cow represents a woman in her utmost docility and fertility.
Dionysus is also only setting the women on this frenzy to teach them a lesson and get his revenge for what happened to his mother, so in reality he feels no empathy for them.
I believe (in the context of Pentheus’s kingdom) that woman more than men have the need to go mad, because at this time in ancient Greece most women were restraint to taking care of the household. They did not have the same privileges and freedoms as men which may have been frustrating for many women. In "Bacchae" Pentheus symbolizes the masculine superstructure that wants to keep women under restraint. Dionysus, on the other hand, symbolizes in "Bacchae" the women’s urge to go wild and out of control due to their lack of liberty in the Greek world.
ReplyDeleteI think Euripides, instead of defining what it is that women should or shouldn't be, is simply comments on the misunderstood nature of women at that point in time by the men in greece. I think it is comical how pertinent this theme of misunderstanding women's powerful and wild nature still is in todays literature and media. Pentheus is no different than the controlling men of our own day.
ReplyDeleteDionysus is the protagonist who arrives in Thebes to proclaim his divinity and punish the family of Cadmus for he wants to implant his joyful divine jurisdiction over the city and combat Pentheus' scheme of a purely rational civic order. As keeper of social order, Pentheus, king of Thebas, is revolted by the cult and disturbed by the idea of women roaming freely in the wild, for the order that Pentheus enforces is not just that of legal matters, but also the proper order of all of life, including the supposed proper authority over women. Dionysus is apparently threatening this paradigm. Pentheus goes on to say that the "effeminate stranger is introducing a new disease for our women and dishonoring their beds." Pentheus’ steadfast unwillingness to receive Dionysus’ leads to his downfall. Yet despite his obsession with ‘law and order’, Pentheus is infamous for being vain, stubborn, skeptical, and arrogant. Tiresias (the old Seer) describes Pentheus' principal fault well when he says, "do not be too confident that / sovereignty is what rules men nor if you hold an opinion, take that opinion for good sense." In the play’s conclusion, Pentheus also falls victim to Dionysus's madness, and accommodates his illicit desire to witness the maenads carry him to his death.
ReplyDeleteMary Mena