Okay today we discussed the importance of honor in the Greek worldview and the role of knowing one's proper place. Here, we saw that characters like Nestor supported the "toe the line" submission to the social hierarchy where Achilles, a soldier, was expected to submit to his political better, Agamemnon. Furthermore, we argued that Agamemnon also behaved unethically, or transgressed the social order, insofar as he should have submitted to his own better, the will of the gods. His hubris was what brought about the plague and Nector pleads with him to restore order, to appease the gods by acting as he should have in the first place, i.e. respecting the supplicant's wishes and returning his daughter.We brought this around to discussing the importance of Achilles' aggression, his rage against submitting to established figure heads of authority and the importance of Homer putting forward a literary depiction of civil disobedience. I argued that Achilles becomes the source or the paradigm for heroism where the hero is judged more for his moral bravery than his physical bravery.
Now turning to Book 22, I want you to tell me what you think of Achilles and his behavior. Can we reasonable still call him a hero, or does his rage blind him, move him to behave immorally...do you think he has crossed the line or do you think that his vengeance is justified. Is the death of Hector ethical? Keep in mind that Achilles has the support and assistance of the goddess Athena.
Cheers and see you Friday,
Dr. Layne
I think that Achilles feels killing Hector was ethical. As was said in class, immortals really aim to please the gods and believe that whatever they say goes. By Athena posing as Hector's brother, Deiphobus, to lure him to Achilles and then giving Achilles his spear back when he threw at Hector. So when a god you respect his aiding you in killing someone, how can you not feel what you've done is ethical? You won't be punished for it. And after all, this is a war between enemies and one is supposed to kill their enemy and for Achilles, killing Hector was his symbolic way of basically saying "I am now taking over Troy." The one thing he did that I would consider immoral would be when he dragged Hector's body throughout the city. I understand the point of killing someone in a war, but to not even allow Hector's last wish to just have his body returned to his family just says something about how Achilles has changed as a person. I feel that it shows he's lost some respect for people as individuals.
ReplyDeleteIn book 22, I think Achilles is conflicted in what he considers moral. I think that the fact that he was supported and even aided by Athena in killing Hector made Achilles think that what he has done may have been moral – seeing as the Gods have the overall right to determine what acts are allowed and what are forbidden. However, this chapter of The Iliad does display the uncontrollable rage that overcomes Achilles. It was unnecessary for Achilles to drag Hector’s body through the streets, and only happened due to the rage that he cannot control. I think that it is a very complicated matter to determine if Achilles can still be considered a hero or not because of the conflicting aspects of Athena supporting him in this act and his rage that is portrayed after he had killed Hector. Hector’s death was unethical simply due to how brutally it ended.
ReplyDeleteIn Book 22, Achilles feels that the death of Hector is justified because of the mass destruction and casualties of the war, including the death of his dear friend Patroclus. Furthermore, the goddess Athena approves the plan and helps Achilles to murder Hector. Although his vengeance may have been understandable, Achilles' response after Hector's death is not ethical. As the men of Achaea gloat in their victory by stabbing the body and parading through the city, Hector's name is shamed and the Trojans are mocked. Because his blind rage caused him to behave immorally, I do not think that Achilles should still be regarded as a hero.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe one can become a hero without passion. Passion drove Achilles to act in the way that he did. Adrenaline and hatred are powerful feelings, he used these to fully obliterate Hector. Such an atrocious death is unfortunate, but Achilles is a man, and humans tend to overdo things.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, it is the fact that he acted so heinously that allows him to become a hero in the first place, as opposed to being above emotion, above humanity.
Also, Achilles lived in violent times (not that we don't, but murder by sword is far more desensitizing and terrible than murder by drones, or ballistic missiles). Therefore, it may have seemed a bit over the top to those around Achilles, but not in the same way that it would seem to us, the 21st century users of air-conditioning.
I do believe that Achilles' killing of Hector was justified. Hector had just killed Patroclus, Achilles' friend (or cousin). Because of the Greek worldview that mirrored the principle "an eye for an eye," it was only right that Achilles avenged the death of his family member. His behavior thereafter is a different story. It would have been honorable if he had given Hector's corpse to his family for a proper burial. Instead, Achilles allowed his friends to stab Hector's dead body, and then dragged Hector behind his chariot. He no longer has the traditional heroic character because he did not behave diplomatically. He was exetremely disrespectful, and he did in fact, cross the line. His vengence is justified, but the manner in which he carried it out is not.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of the warrior culture of the time, it was ethical for Achilles to fight Hector to the death. Hector did kill his cousin Patroclus and most Greek warriors of the time would have made the same move as Achilles (especially if a goddess like Athena was supporting them). However,after Achilles killed Hector he dissmissed Hectors last plea to have a proper burial and dragged his corpse around the city. This was a very immoral, childish, and dishonorable move by Achilles making him seem less of hero. He may seem to the Aacheans as a great hero for killing Hector but, Achilles desicion to kill Hector was a totally selfish one guide by his own rage. Also, Achilles is in part to blame for his cousins death. Patroculus went out pretending to be Achilles by wearing his armor because Achilles still refused to fight. Hector mistook Patroculus for the real Achilles and killed him. After reading the chapter, I too think Hector is more of a hero than Achilles. Hector may have not have been the better warrior but, he was the better man considering he stomached the courage to fight Achilles knowing he would be defeated.
ReplyDeleteAchilles’ killing of Hector was ethical. Once Athena stepped in to assist Achilles, it somewhat became his duty to kill Hector as to please her because of the worldview of the relationship between mortals and immortals. Though the killing of Hector was ethical, what happened to his body afterward was not. Hector made an attempt to make some sort of pact with Achilles to be honorable. Achilles did not want anything to do with a pact, and after Hector’s death, dragged the body around the city- that was not very honorable of Achilles to do, and the Gods did not say to do that. Hector’s last wish was for his body to be given back to the city, and unfortunately for him, it seems that Achilles rage had blinded him and made him forget what honor was for that point in time.
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ReplyDelete"But there stood Hector, shackled by his deadly fate." (5-6)
ReplyDeleteI am interested in the idea of fate working in an ethical framework. Old King Priam seems disinterested in conflict by Book 22, Hector certainly does not particularly want to die by the hand of Achilles towards the end. Who is making the decision here that this man is damned?
Achilles? Athena? Zeus? Hector himself?
Ethical decisions are about what is right for a group of people. I'm not convinced that such a convoluted decision can be framed as one or the other. What really struck me as unethical was the way in which he was dragged around after the fact. That was not his fate or request. Achilles acted like an animal. He was wrong.
I feel very torn by this question due to the difference of perspectives. On one hand, i can understand the argument that Achilles's actions were justified and ethical for a number of reasons. First, Hector killed a very close friend of Achilles; two, Achilles has the support and assistance of Athena to kill him, and (three) Achilles will receive a great deal of glory for slaying the noble and highly respected Trojan warrior. However from another perspective, I strongly do not approve of his behavior for significant reasons. The definition of a hero is someone who has couarage, exceptional abilities, and is admired for his nobile quailities. But the way in which he defeats Hector is not noble in any way. I think his rage completely overshadows his ability to be a hero in this instance, making him act radically immoral. Not only does he belittle Hector before they fight ("there are no pacts between lions and men"), but he also shames Hector's family as he drags the corpse of Hector on the ground for all of Troy to see, especially king and queen (parents of Hector). When addressing the validity of his vengence, instead of asking if it is justified...maybe we need to ask should vengence ever be justified?? After all, the days of Hammurabi are over. With clenching my fists and having a bitter taste in my mouth, i would reply yes, vengence does seem ethical to Achilles since his good friend was murdered by Hector, the great Trojan general and enemy. But the way in which Hector was killed and the intense triumph Achilles has for "shaming noble Hector" was neither ethical nor moral.
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-chris joseph-
Up until his desecration of Hector's corpse, Achilles had some sense of honor, his main reason for assisting the Greeks in the Trojan War. Hector was willing to be diplomatic with him in order to save the Trojan war prisoners, but he realizes that Achilles would have no mercy with him and would probably kill the prisoners just to get even with Hector.
ReplyDeleteHector's thoughts accurately predict Achilles' behavior, comparing him to a lion (dehumanizing him) and not even having mercy to give King Priam the body, denying him a warrior's death.
I think that Achilles' behavoir could be justified because he is fighting for the honor and glory, but he is doing it in a ruthless way. He was following what his own morals, but it could be seen as unethical because of the way he acted. His vengence and rage could have blinding him in a way that most of the people in Trop saw him as a brutal demi god... however can he be considered honorable because of the help of Athena? Athena aided him through the battle where Hector did not receive help and was deceived. That, for me, is not honorable nor can someone gain glory and honor from that. Hector was not the only one to notice how ruthless Achilles was being... everyone in Troy greived for the lost of Hector. So I guess I changed my mind about my first sentence. I believe that Achilles's rage blinded him from having anything honorable about the battle. Just a beast looking for revenge.
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ReplyDeleteI do not consider Achilles a glorious hero; a hero has more honor than what Achilles has shown. The Ancient Greeks may disagree with me as heroic virtues were different compared to today. I understand Achilles was avenging the death of his cousin, but I believe Achilles’ crossed the line when he decided to disgrace Hector’s body by attaching it to his chariot and dragging it through the dirt. Achilles did not give Hector’s body to the Trojans for a proper burial. In terms of strength and skill Achilles is seen as superior to Hector. On the other hand in terms of respect and humility, Hector is far superior. Achilles’ self centered rage did blind him from acting morally. The gods, specifically Athena’s encouragement for Achilles to attack Hector, did not allow Achilles to properly think about his actions because he assumed Athena (being a god) was wiser than him and should be followed. It is really hard to give an answer as to whether the death of Hector was ethical. It is certain that the mistreatment of Hector’s dead body was unethical.
ReplyDeleteI think Achilles behavior towards Hector is understandable but it was immoral of him to disrespect Hector by dragging his body around the city. Even if Hector deserved to die his body should have been treated with more respect. Even though his reasons for killing Hector was ethical, dragging his body around was not. It can be said that Achilles quest for revenge may have (temporarily) corrupted him which contradicts the sense of honor he usually displays. It should also be noted that Athena did nothing to prevent Achilles from dragging Hectors' body around.
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ReplyDeleteIn Book 22, Achilles’ behavior is shamelessly brutal and dishonorable regarding Hector’s last wishes and his dead body. He is overcome by rage and wants revenge, especially for his friend Patroclus’ death. In Achilles mind, Hector must die and he has no desire to honor Hector’s wishes. I think that Rage blinds him and he wants Hector to suffer to the full extent. I can understand how rage can drive a person to do something that the person wouldn't normally do. This fury makes him behave immorally, but humans/heroes tend to struggle with their own morality at some point and eventually realize their faults. His revenge is justified ethically because like was earlier mentioned in class or in the blog; a worldview of the Greeks was an eye for an eye(in other words you kill my friend then I kill you). Furthermore, the death of Hector is ethical because the gods support this fate.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Hector has more qualities of a hero than Achilles. I agree with whoever said it earlier, Achilles was a better warrior, but Hector was a better hero. Hector was honorably willing to suffer the consequences of his actions, he didn’t run to safety like his parents begged. Another honorable thing he did was contemplating negotiation with Achilles even though he quickly realized that was impossible. Even after Hector found out that Athena tricked him and that he was going to die, he went in for one last attack on Achilles. Hector shows courage in the face of defeat.
Considering the will of the God's was such a driving force in the actions of men, Athena's "blessing" and indeed assistance in the killing and subsequent treatment of Hectors body could almost justify Achilles actions. Furthermore, Achilles lost a member of his family to Hectors hands. Dishonor is what started this war afterall.
ReplyDeleteI don't think questions of the ethics of Achilles in killing Hector is even relevant...If we are to answer that, should we also ask if it is ethical to send thousands to their deaths in a war over one woman? Hector, like Achilles, is a combatant, and his death was only to be expected as long as conflict continued.
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ReplyDeleteWhile I think we can still reasonably call Achilles a hero, his actions in book 22 are certainly less than heroic. It's hard to think of Achilles heroically as he displays such arrogance about his own strength, even going to the lengths of referring to himself as a "wolf" and Hector as a "lamb" when in fact his strength and success is more than slightly influenced by the gods, particularly Athena who let's Achilles rest while she impersonates Hector's brother in order to manipulate him into facing Achilles rather than running. And while Hector proves to be the only character reasonable enough to consider forming some kind of truce, some effort of diplomacy, Achilles resigns the use reason to instead embrace his sense of rage. And instead of having mercy by at least preserving the body of this clearly worthy opponent, he drags it through the street in order to humiliate the citizens of Priam. By the same token the gods don't really have a whole lot of integrity either. Zeus for example totally sells out Hector and Priam, which had a special place in his heart.
ReplyDeleteBy the end of Book 22 Achilles displays his barbaric nature by mutilating the body of Hector. While Achilles displays his heroism on the battlefield in terms of strength, he illustrates a complete lack of humanity with his barbaric and dog-like nature. It goes without saying that Achilles superiority on the battlefield can be viewed as heroic, but after Book 22 I find it nearly impossible to respect him as a human being. Achilles is an adrenaline junkie who doesn't have the courage to harness his own rage. His rage controls his actions, where as Hector displays his own integrity. Achilles sets a disturbing example for his troops, as they glorify his animal behavior. Dragging his body with his chariot is an attempt to honor his own triumph, not his army's. Hector displays his morality by not running to safety and accepting the fate he deserves. He doesn't put anyone else in danger in this book other than himself. Realizing he has been played by the gods and knowing he will not survive, he fights Achilles with the utmost courage. Hector dies with pride and honor, and Achilles spits on that honor by treating his body like meat.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion Achilles most definitely let his rage blind him. Whatever attempts he made previously to uphold his hero mentality was laid to waste the moment he decided no to honor his agreement with Hector on how to treat the body of the defeated advisory. Yes he acted out of a need for revenge but once Hector was dead his need for justice should have come to an end. Instead he acted out of spite, choosing to ignore the fact that a true hero would have honored his promise out of respect to both his enemy and the dead.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast, Hector displays actions more suited to a hero. The odds were most definitely against him and yet he shouldered his responsibility with both courage and honor. First by refusing to return to Troy even though it may have allowed him to live and fight another day and then again by refusing negotiations in favor of his own personal decorum. He gives Achilles the battle he most obviously wants even when he knows that while he fights, he does so alone with no help from the Gods. All this characterizes what a hero should be because while anyone can get themselves in to a fight it takes a special kind who does so when he knows it will be his last.
I believe Achilles is still a hero, despite the fact that he made a wrong judgment out of rage. Achilles was very close to Patroclus, and Hector killed him. It is within his rights, in that era, to avenge his companion by killing Hector. However, desecrating Hector's body was a dishonorable act though I think that his anger was warranted. Achilles is a man of strong emotions, and his grief consumes him into a blind rage. This is the very reason the gods had Patroclus killed--it is the one thing that would send Achilles to his destiny of death in battle.
ReplyDeleteHector, in earlier chapters of the Illiad, killed Patroclus, took the armor, and tried to take Patroclus's body off the battlefield so that there would be no burial rites to send him on to the underworld. Hector has less honor than Achilles because he is cowardly and could not even kill Patroclus without the help of the gods, and then would have the gall to take his body off the battlefield.
In his mind, I think Achilles feels that the killing of Hector was ethical due to the fact that he was avenging Patroclus’ death and he had the Goddess Athena in his favor. As an outsider looking in, one can clearly see how quickly his rage blinded him to behave immorally. As in any fight, one person must die and that person was Hector, but Achilles’ actions after slaying Hector was dishonorable. It was not enough that he disobeyed Hector’s last wishes of returning his body back to his parents for an honorable and proper burial and letting others stab him once he was dead, but dragging him for all to see was more than disrespectful and unethical. By those actions, I would not consider Achilles a hero.
ReplyDeleteAs we have discussed in class, the number one rule that is to be strictly followed in this culture is to obey the Gods' demands. The citizens of this society are raised to believe that if they are abiding by the Gods' laws and demands they are doing the right things, thus performing ethically just actions. Not only was Achilles driven to kill Hector by what he was taught to do in war, seek revenge and a win, but he was also driven by the Gods' demands (Athena's). So, in this times standards seeking vengeance on Hector by killing him is justified by Achilles. What perhaps is not justified is flaunting it for all to see. I would consider him more of a hero if he had returned Hector to his family, abiding to Hectors last dying wish. This would demonstrate not only his physical strength, but more respectfully his mental and moral capabilities as well as his respectfulness to the dead's family.
ReplyDeleteI feel that Achilles acted a little cocky in the fight. I understand that he was set on hunting down Hector and killing him but he could atleast granted Hector his last dying wish, but instead he treated him like an animal and let all the men stab him after he was already dead. Athena was wrong too because she tricked Hector into facing Achilles one on one. I think in the end Achilles felt like he had to prove a point and in proving that point he showed everyone how heartless he was.
ReplyDeleteIn Book 22, the hero Achilles shows himself to be human. Whereas before Achilles is painted as nearly infallible figure of heroism, in Book 22, he is overtaken by rage and the pain of losing Patroclus. These human emotions lead him to act in a way, that by our modern standards, would be considered barbaric and disrespectful. Achilles killing of Hector is described vividly in the text, and his treatment of Hector's dead body is less than delicate. While it may seem that Achilles is acting rashly in this section of The Iliad, I think we must remember the real cause of the bloodshed--honor. In killing Hector, Achilles in not only fulfilling his duty as a warrior, but more importantly avenging the death of his beloved friend Patroclus. In my opinion, avenging the death of Patroclus shows true loyalty, a characteristic that I believe was probably central to ancient Greek social organization. Additionally, Athena guides and supports Achilles in his slaying of Hector.
ReplyDeleteI think this brings up an interesting question--whereas in Book 1 Achilles challenges the social order and status quo in a way that shows heroism, in Book 22 Achilles seems to regress and begin blindly accepting the traditions and ethics of his society. Instead of rising above the social order, Achilles now submits to it--he submits not only to the will of the gods, but also to shamelessly killing Hector in the name of honor or loyalty. By ancient Greek standards, perhaps Achilles acts ethically and morally by avenging Patroclus' death and following the will of the gods, but in doing so he becomes an embodiment of the status quo and therefore acts less than heroically in my eyes.
I must agree with Hil.Jones in the statement about seeing the more human side of Achilles. Achilles has shown that even heroes can and will fall if they are blinded by vengeance, rage and the inability to rationally identify the situation. Achilles has crossed the line of moral behavior. In the death of Hector, Hector was betrayed by the gods and tried to portray a final act of honor on himself. At that time, Achilles knew exactly where to place his spear in order to kill him. But, Achilles also allows the other Achaeans to partake in stabbing Hector. Not only is that beyond the line of morality, it shows the ravishing beast and absence of compassion in Achilles. Beyond that, Achilles' ultimate act of disrespect toward Hector was tieing his dead body to the chariot and dragging it around the city. In my eyes, Achilles is no longer a hero but an angered fool.
ReplyDeleteIn modern times, we would say that killing under any circumstance is unethical. Under the ancient Greek worldview, death, because it was so common, and because the age expectancy was way below what it is now, wasn't really a foreign term. It was honorable and courageous to avenge the death of a comrade or loved one who had been killed by an enemy. This is the primary reason why Achilles went after Hector. Hector killed Achilles' most beloved comrade Petrocleus in battle.
ReplyDeleteBut, Hector was waiting at the gates primarily to avenge his youngest brother Polydorus, whom Achilles had struck down earlier in the battle (King Priam had told his youngest son not to go out and fight. It goes back to the view that disobeying those with more power brings nothing but desolation).
Achille's actually acted the most dishonorable when he tried to desecrate Hector's body and when he did not allow King Priam and the Trojans to honor Hector and give him the proper burial rites. Only when the gods willed it did Achille's give back the body.
So, when does it end? When does the circle of vengeance and blood end? When does killing become unethical?
In book 22, Achilles shows a side of himself not seen before. Where he is normally looked upon as a heroic character in battle, now we see almost animalistic behavior towards Hector in both his death and after.
ReplyDeleteAchilles is torn knowing Hector killed his very close friend Patroclus. Due to his loyalty for his friend he seeks revenge on the murder, who is Hector. I see this as a heroic trait, seeing a man fight for his friend even after he is dead. However, Achilles had s few things going against any sort of heroic status when he drags Hector's body behind his chariot for all to see his "prize catch".
I believe that Achilles did step out of heroic line. He behaved like a savage in not honoring Hector's last wish. Instead, he dragged his body around in the most inhumane way possible. But, it is also understandable and totally human. Not only was his dear friend murdered by this man, the goddess, Athena promoted such behavior and lead Hector to Achilles. As we talked about in class, the gods and goddess held high power over the people, as their main goal was to please the gods.
Personally, I think Achilles' refusal to properly bury Hector is not so much unethical as it is dishonorable. A hero of the ancient Greek times was expected to fight and oftentimes die with honor. Achilles refuses Hector this simple and basic request. Though Hector causes Achilles much grief by killing his men, he was merely doing his duty of defending the city.
ReplyDeleteTo me Hector seems to embody the mold of the typical Greek hero in this story. He knows Achilles is very strong and that he will most likely die at Achilles' hands. Never one to back down form a fight, Hector meets Achilles outside of the city gates. Achilles' refusal to return Hectors body is dishonorable. His rage has most definitely blinded him.
For the people, there will be no argument against the Gods. Hector's death was ethical in a sense. This is evident in the fact that when Zeus was considering saving Hector, Athena convinced Zeus that Hector's time has come. This was displayed by putting both Achilles and Hector's fate on the golden scale and Hector's fate sinking to the ground. In a way it was a reconfirmation to the Gods that his death was evident. Achilles obviously had the upper hand in the battle with Hector because Athena was there to aid him and also the fact that Hector wore Achilles' old armor. It was ethical looking at it from their point of view but I feel that Achilles let his rage get the better of him. The dragging of Hector's body through the city was very immoral. Yes his vengeance was justified but not to the extent he took it to.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Achilles was justified in killing Hector. Hector charged Achilles when he realized that the God's had turn their backs to him. Hector also is trying to regain honor. Achilles is supported by the God's but his rage blinds him. I feel that Achilles looses honor and hero status when he drags Hector through the mud. Achilles then denies Hector's final request to have his body returned to Troy for a proper and honorable burial.
ReplyDeleteQuestioning whether Achilles behavior is ethical is a toss up for me. All is fair in war. Obviously Achilles is blinded with rage but this is what I believe to be a reflection on his youth. Achilles had every right to kill Hector, however the way he went about killing him was dishonorable. People die in war, and Hector had it coming for killing Achilles' friend. Clearly the help of Athena was unfair, however she is the goddess of strategy and wisdom so I don't doubt that any idea she has is wrong. She wanted to help Achilles and it was meant to be.
ReplyDeleteHomer himself wrote Achilles to be “barbaric” (line 369) and compares him to animals and predators throughout Book 22. His rage is a characteristic of the Greek virtue andreia, or fortitude and courage. His display of strength, energy and violence in battling Hector surely displays his andreia, however his cruelness in victory is most certainly lacking the remaining three virtues, wisdom, piety and prudence. He hunts Hector like a hound attacking a fawn—as Homer describes it—showing no mercy. This display of cunning is what glorifies Achilles, and as a favorite of Athena, what probably draws the goddess to the battle to goad Achilles on. When Hector tries to reason with Achilles, attempting to create a pact honoring the losing warrior’s body and promising to return the corpse to loyal friends, Achilles is spitefully uncooperative and belligerently assured that he will win. He mortally wounds Hector and still willfully refuses Hector’s implorations to not be devoured by dogs, but to be brought back to his family. As a final sign of hatred, Achilles and his men desecrate the fallen Hector’s body and drag him through the streets. This disrespectful attitude makes Achilles less likable and less heroic than he once seemed; his honor is lacking and his respect in battle is pitiful. His rage and fury may be great characteristics of his manliness, but he lacks prudence, wisdom, and piety for the dead by dishonoring Hector in his murder. His rage is almost a weakness in character—he succumbs to it far too easily and allows it to blind him from moral and ethical behavior.
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ReplyDeleteAlthough Achilles is justified in his killing of Hector, he acts immorally and against Greek law when he mutilates Hector's body. Achilles strength in battle is admirable and with Athena's support Hector's death is moral in Greek society. Achilles is immoral due to his blind rage when it comes to his treatment of Hector's body. Achilles refuses Hector's oath that both will treat each other respectively after death. Instead, Achilles drags Hector's lifeless body through the mud. Achilles lets his rage overtake standard custom and law which is a proper burial. The concept of a proper burial is very important in Greek society which leads this action to be very immoral indeed and Achilles as much less than heroic.
ReplyDeleteI think Achilles is a flawed hero due to his blind faith in the support and encouragement of Athena. While he would on a normal basis seem like a hero and his actions show that, it is his blind rage that enrages him and leads him to giving Hector's body to the dogs. As even prevelant today, people will blinding follow their religion and their god not thinking about their actions. Achilles acted immorally by strictly following Athena and then when he let his rage get the best of him. The death of Hector was not ethical. Hector was decived by Achilles in the first place; Achilles chose to kill him, an act possibly one of a hero, in a horribly immoral way. This is what in my opinion makes him a flawed hero.
ReplyDeleteI think that Achilles was acting ethically in killing Hector. However, I do feel that the death Patroclus was the fuel that drove Achilles to be so harsh to Hector's dead body. I have heard before that there is no honor among the dead but Achilles did cross the line when he drug him away from the city walls. in my opinion heros have a sense of respect and dignity for the dead. Achilles let rage and revenge make him incapable of obtaining these attributes. Taking into account the fact that Achilles had the support of Athena, it almost takes away the "greatness" of his revenge. He had the Gods on his side and it as it mentioned a few times in the book, it was Hector's fate to die. Society tends to put the title of hero on the "underdog" that fights his/her way to the top. This takes the heroism out of Achilles for me.
ReplyDeleteIn book 22 of The Iliad, Achilles gives no thought to the morality of his actions. He acts exclusively on the blind rage and intense sorrow he feels from the murder of his cousin, Patroclus. Achilles does not take into account Hector's dying wish for his body to be returned to his people, but focuses only on his desire for complete vengeance. Achilles' actions are somewhat excessive. He is not satisfied with simply murdering Hector, and goes as far as severely mutilating Hector's body. If revenge is based on the "eye for an eye" principle, Achilles takes an eye and a tooth. Furthermore, any justification or support Achilles recieves from the gods only extends to Achilles' murder of Hector. Athena does not inspire Achilles to drag Hector's body through the dirt, nor does she encourage it in any way. Also, Zeus seems to question Achilles' quest for revenge altogether. He appeals to the gods to consider saving Hector from his fate, and repeals his hesitation only when Athena calls him into question. If the morality of Achilles' actions is measured by the support he recieves from the gods, then his actions can certainly be considered immoral. His heroism is called into question by his blind rage, which he allows to dominate his actions, and the resulting immorality of his vengeance.
ReplyDeleteAchilles actions in battle could classify him as a hero and example to his troops if only he acted honorably in regards to Hector's wish to give him a proper burial. I think it was over kill ( no pun intended) and completely masochistic of Achilles to dishonor Hector's body through mutilation and parading through the streets of Priam. It was dishonorable to do so, especially when his victory was not necessarily solely his. He had help from Athena in this victory, but yet he got all the glory and in my opinion dishonor through his actions. I do not think he displayed Hector's body for any other purpose besides the potential ego boost from showing off his bloody victory.
ReplyDeleteHaving defeated Hector fairly in combat, Achilles is transformed by his rage over the death of Patroclus at Hector's hands into a man blinded by anger and hostility. Achilles disobeys the code of the ancient warriors and desecrates the body of Hector by dragging it around in front of the Trojan ramparts. His vengeance is extreme and in refusing to allow Hector decent burial and funeral games as required by the religious system of the era. Achilles is crossing a line that his peers value. Because of the way Achilles acted after killing Hector, I don't think it would be right to call him a hero.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Achilles was justified in killing Hector. He does mention how Hector, the prince of Troy, had his ships burned, which, in my opinion, would make anyone rather vengeful. However, I feel as if he had an unfair advantage by accepting Athena's help in battle. Hector was forced to act alone in the fight.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to this, I found it was somewhat brutal for all the men to stab Hector even after his death, and to then drag his body from the chariot. His parents were already upset to know of his death. Dragging his body to mock him seemed a little much to me. This action makes me think of Achilles as less of a hero, and more of a bully.
Achilles may be considered a hero by his own men but his rage did blind him in such away that he crossed the line by stabbing Hector's body after his death and then dragging it behind his chariot. Achilles may have been supported by Athena but Apollo will take his revenge later on. Achilles did not even let Hector's family perform a proper burial for Hector. Achilles' rage has portrayed him as a savage that only wants kill for his pride. Athena only supported Achilles' victory but she did not want him to drag Hector's body in front of his family and army.
ReplyDeleteWhile I think that Achilles could be called a hero for his civil disobedience I think in Book 22 we really get to see how Achilles is completely lacking in integrity. While Achilles is Hectors Physical Superior Achilles is arguably inferior in terms of integrity. He mistreats Hector's body. Achilles has other moments of disgrace with no real rationale besides latent rage.Having not read further books I am unsure if Achilles comes to terms with his lack of morality or honor in this respect.
ReplyDeleteWar is violent. Despite the grotesque manner Achilles treats the defeated Hector with, as a Greek warrior, there is no dishonor in defeating the enemy. Our understanding of Hectors merit make it difficult to see this action of rage as anything but barbaric, but war is barbaric. War has always been barbaric. There is no less honor in stripping a human of his life simply because the manner in which you take it. Victory is victory.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGiOcFOG-s&feature=related
ReplyDeleteThis is a clip from the movie "Troy" depicting the fight scene between Achilles and Hector. I felt that it really demonsrated Achilles' total lack of respect for Hector, which is unheroic behavior. In the clip, Achilles taunts Hector, kicks and pushes him, and even throws his shield at him claiming that he does not need it. This tied together with the disrespectful mutilation of Hector after he is killed is completely dishonorable and impious. Despite the fact that Achilles has the support of Athena his behavior was still distasteful and overall, I believe, displeasing to the rest of the gods.
The final combat between Achilles and Hector shifts from a battle of heroes towards a duel of heroic values. Even though Achilles establishes his superiority to Hector in terms of fortitude and stamina, his metamorphosis into inferiority is clear in terms of honest righteousness. His abuse of Hector’s body is a defamation, fused by the barbarity in which he permits his tainted and foul army to indulge in. As portrayed in the story, Achilles partakes in such blasphemies quite often and does so not out of any real moral duty/principle, but rather out of impulsive rage and anger.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast, Hector manages to redeem himself from his previous mistakes and inadequacies in the preceding books. Hector’s protests to return to the shelter of Troy’s boundaries after observing the tragic fatalities that resulted by his orders, illustrate a humble statement delivering a message of his willingness to endure the painful consequences of his foolish behavior, as he camps outside. His refusal of a negotiation in favor of continued battle demonstrates persistent life of his personal dignity and integrity, his strive to obtain a mutual agreement from Achilles that the victorious party treat the opponent’s corpse with respect, exemplifies his respectable demeanor.
Lastly, Hector’s final stab at nobility by thrusting at Achilles even after he recognizes that the gods decided to abandon him, making his death inevitable, illuminates his heroism and courage, one last time. Despite the fact that Hector dies in this scene, the values that he symbolizes: virtue, constraint, modesty and respect, live on. Eventually, Achilles does come to a realization and “enlightenment” of the same values, after analyzing his actions and recognizing his faults that were the aftermath of his rage.
As a military Soldier, I do (can) not look to Achilles as a hero. In my opinion, a hero is someone whose actions in time of trouble are so humane, honorable, and courageous that they should be exemplified to others. These actions should be selfless in nature, pursued against the odds, beyond normal comprehension. To the contrary, Achilles’ actions are selfish and very comparable to what the average person would do in a similar situation. The problem isn’t that Achilles is moved to rage because of the death of Patroclus, rather that in his rage he looses sight of his value for life and concern for others; this is not heroic. Achilles transforms into a merciless villain who exemplifies a total lack of sympathy and no moral boundaries. His actions are not motivated by ethics, or by honor— but by the hope of revenge to appease his own personal gratification. It is in this state that he kills and makes extreme mockery of Hector and takes the city of Troy. However, the fall of Troy is the result of Achilles’ selfish actions not of heroism, and it does not erase his disregard for ethics, overly cruel actions, and lack of self-restraint throughout the journey.
ReplyDeleteLatoya thanks for the more personal touch. I often don't get to hear the voices of contemporary soldiers and truly appreciate your comments on the topic of heroism. A question though, do you think that there has ever been a hero by your own standards. Here I am wondering if there are any concrete examples of a hero who is "humane/honorable" and is truly "selfless in nature." Don't even great men like Dr. Martin Luther King still have personal motivations for their actions. Personal motivations that even enrage them....
ReplyDeleteWe are talking for completely different times. If we see only the fight between Achilles and Hector the we can easily say that Achilles action to drag Hector's corpse was unethical. But let me remind you Hector's attitude when he killed Patroclus. He took his weapons (which where in fact Achilles weapons) and tried in a hard fight to take Patroclus body and to fed his dogs with it. He failed because Achilles interrupted with his plans. So where is Hector's morality? And when he faces the far superior Achilles he then remembers the ethic code? Now its too late. Achilles treated Hector's body better than Hector planned for Patroclus body. Furthermore Patroclus first was wounded from Eforvos and then Hector just finished him off. According to the ethics of that times to help you a mortal to a fight was not glorious but to help you a god was. So Hector took help from Eforvos to kill Patroclus and also wanted to fight Achilles with the help of Diiphovos (who in reality was goddess Athena: Hector's fate was to die so Athena come as Diiphovos in order to persuade the terrified Hector - he run away from Achilles- to fight and have a glory death.) Goddess Athena help Achilles but Hector's fate has already been decided! Practically all Athena did was to persuade Hector to stand up an fight. Achilles need no help to kill Hector and Athena's help just adds glory to Achilles. Of course in our times Achilles actions are considered unethical (at least) but we should judge a person with the ethics of his time.
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