Now after discussing the importance of combining Power and Intellect for true freedom, we shall turn to a text which pits the two concepts of Faith and Reason against each other.
In light of this, most readers of the text immediately regard Pentheus' rationalism and refusal to believe in Dionysus as a tyrannical hubris or stubborn/disgusting arrogance which will ultimately lead to his downfall. Regardless of this instinctual characterization of Pentheus, can you give me reasons that may justify his arrogance and his consequent persecution of the Bacchants. If you don't think their is any justification for his arrogance, please explain why you think this.
Have fun,
Dr. Layne
Just a reminder it doesn't matter how great your post is, if I read it in class and you aren't in there to defend it your participation grade will be affected.
When Pentheus hears of the strange practices used in worshiping Dionysus, he is enraged about the effect that this is having on the people of Lydia. He claims that Dionysus is a "sorcerer" and "false teacher of new rites" who has come to deceive the women of the city. It seems as if Pentheus's reaction is motivated by a desire to protect the people from harmful behavior. Additionally, he could also be envious of the attention being paid to Dionysus instead of receiving honor for himself.
ReplyDeletePentheus is obviously not going to immediately believe there is a new god that he, a king, had not known of. He knows that if he worships one other than a god, which would be idolatry, he could be tortured and killed by the 'real' gods, the ones he is aware of and worships.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, as a man, Julie is right is saying that Pentheus probably has a normal male reaction of jealousy towards a) the women engaging in lustful, sexual activity, not in relation to him and b) that Dionysus is getting the approval and attention of the city. He also must act as protector of his kingdom and his ignorance of the 'new god' and his ways make him vulnerable to being more defensive.
I think even more underlying than all of these topics is one we have yet to discover in the text, but get a hint of near the end of the reading: that Pontheus may be curious and wants to experiment in the orgies as well, but in his position as king and his reasoning telling him this 'new god' may be completely fale, he is struggling with allowing himself to do so.
i definitely dont fault Pontheus for his skepticism of Dionysus's identity. i too would be extremely skeptical of some stranger if he came into my ruling lands claiming he was some significant figure, a figure even more important than me! But the way in which he persecutes the Baccants is not justifiable. he not only does it simply out of spite but he wants to use that as a symbol of what he thinks about Dionysus. It seems as if his pride and ego are very influential in his actions
ReplyDeleteI would agree with what Chris said in that pride and ego are very important characteristics of Pentheus. I do, however, think that Pentheus has a reason to be upset. Dionysus claims to be a great god and demands respect and takes control of all of the women. Any person or character would feel some jealousy or anger if they were put in this position, especially because Pentheus is a king and has a reputation to protect. He does not understand who Dionysus really is, and what he is up to so he reacts with anger.
ReplyDeleteI can understand why Pentheus does not want to beleive in Dionysis. Even his mother Semele's family did not believe that he was "alive." They all believed that when Semele was burned to death, so was her unborn child. Also, it does seem strange that Zeus would even try to save the child because his track record with children has not been too positive. Another thing that justifies Pentheus's unwillingness to believe is the practices that Dionysis's followers participate in are not the traditional means of worship as done by the followers of other gods. Almost all the other gods are content with sacrifice and the occassional prayer, maybe even a dance, but Dionysis made his followers drunk and drove them mad. Additionally, Dionysis was also a threat to Pentheus's image as a powerful leader. Pentheus had told the people not to follow Dionysis, and many of them ignored Pentheus, making him look weak. Naturaly, he sought to end this, which led to his end.
ReplyDeleteWhile Pentheus is acting out of hubris and arrogance, he has no idea of the consequences of his persecution of the Bacchants. Without knowing what the future holds and who exactly he is persecuting, Pentheus seems to be performing standard procedure for rulers at that time. If there exists heresy or a threat to power or religion, it is usually crushed under the authority of the rulers. Hence, Pentheus' acts, although scorned by the Bacchants and the deities, are justified by this typical ruler response and in this first part he seems to be the victim of fate.
ReplyDeletePentheus reacts to the arrival and popularization of Dionysis with harsh criticism. Although I believe Pentheus is extremely mindful of his status as a ruler and is therefore threatened by Dionysis' popularity I think that his actions against the Bacchants are more motivated by an attempt to defend rationality and objective reasoning in his kingdom. In this way I believe Pentheus is justified in his disapproval of the Bacchants. However I think that Euripides, who revels in gray areas, intentionally blurs the line between hubris and altruism, so I don't think there's a definitive answer.
ReplyDeleteThough at first glance it may seem like Pentheus is being dictatorial or tyrannical in his refusal to accept Dionysus and his followers, his decision is logical. He has never heard of this god Dionysus, which maybe a concern to him considering he is king and should have knowledge of every god in his kingdom. If his subjects are worshipping a false god, Pentheus might believe this may anger the real gods. Also, his subjects might come to respect and worship Dionysus more than him which could be detrimental to his authority over Lydia.
ReplyDeletePentheus arrogance is justifiable but it’s also extreme. Pentheus is the King of Thebes, he has every right to feel threaten by this new “religion” that everyone agrees with. Dionysus and Pentheus both want to have authority over Thebes and this also threaten Pentheus. In Pentheus view, Dionysus is someone who shouldn’t exist and he is willing to fight against a god he has never known existed until now. Pentheus is a little extreme because he is short tempered.When he is questioning the stranger he his only angered by the strangers answers to his questions and he doesn't realize that the stranger is Dionysus himself. It makes since why his arrogance will lead to his downfall, because he is only blinded by his anger.
ReplyDeleteI think what is very interesting about this play is that, unlike in Prometheus Bound, there is a moral ambiguity. Pentheus is a representation of the state, order, and rules--to the point that he is almost too rigid and denies the possibility that there could be a god in their midst. An example of this is when he ignores the miracle of the Bacchaeans escaping from their chains and being able to go back to their dancing and worship. However, Dionysus is not complete justified either. He is angry about the besmirching of his mother's character by his family, so he forcefully causes the women in the mountains to go mad. As a god in this era he would have deserved the rites due to him, but that does not excuse his unhonorable conduct towards those that do not wish to follow him.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I argue that Pentheus' reaction to this sudden madness in his people is justified. As a king he is concerned about what is happening to his people. However, his rudeness towards a compliant prisoner is dishonorable and not the proper way to handle a situation. He understands that the situation is a problem, but he is not handling the situation calmly. He merely sees it as a degradation of morals, and will not look into any alternative possibilities as to what is happening.
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ReplyDeleteBoth Pentheus and Dionysus seem to represent polar opposites surrounding the balance between faith and reason in the first half of the play. I think it's also important to point out that both of their dramatic purposes in the work exist only because of the polarity of their positions: Pentheus, in his first statement of the play, expresses his wish to kill Dionysus for the sole purpose of removing his influence on Thebes' citizens; whereas Dionysus, also in his first statement, reveals a similarly drastic desire to kill Pentheus, because he "fights against the gods, prohibiting [Dionysus from] all sacrificial offerings," and "when he prays, he chooses to ignore [Dionysus]." I think the justification in Pentheus' death-wish for Dionysus arises from the fact that Pentheus selflessly wants to liberate his citizens from what his character perceives as a threatening madness, and Dionysus wants Pentheus dead because he is selfishly offended at Pentheus' disregard for him, and even more selfishly, literally puts a spell on Thebes' women and induces the madness that arouses Pentheus' revenge. If Dionysus' hubris hadn't invoked the disruptive behavior of an entire community, I would have found it hard to justify Pentheus'. However, Pentheus' hubris is exhibited throughout the play only because Dionysus threatens the fabric of his community, and he believes that a God's whims should never disrupt the lives of mortals.
ReplyDeleteIt is understandable that, as the King of Thebes, Pentheus is not ready to accept Dionysus as a God- that is, Pentheus is there to maintain law and order and not prepared to have his authority overlooked. Pentheus is the chosen heir to Thebes, so it can be justified that he becomes upset with unexpected arrival of Dionysus and tries to show off his authoritative power in a arrogant way. However, I do not think it is justifiable that Pentheus does not accept what his people want to accept- though he is king and has the power, he should still keep an open mind to what the women and men want to worship.
ReplyDeletePentheus's attitude seems to be justified because he does not believe Dionysus is a god. Dionysus was considered to be a new god and as far as Pentheus knows he is an imposter. Pentheus also believes Dionysus is corrupting the minds of the people which shows concern for their well being. Even the attack on Dionysus was understandable, but I think he should have investigated him to be sure if his opinion on Dionusus is right or not.
ReplyDeleteEven though part of Pentheus' persecution of the Bacchants likely comes from envy, most of it stems from the fact that the women and . As king, he would naturally want all his subjects to pay attention to him and his rituals, not dance around with some new cult that just walked eight into town.
ReplyDeleteIt is understandable to see where Pentheus is coming from in his disapproval and skepticism in Dionysus as a tyrannical hubris because coming out of the blue and being self-titled as such an important ruler better than Pentheus. I think he is justified in his persecution of Dionysus because you cannot let someone come into your territory and try to take over.
ReplyDeleteIt is rational that, as the King of Thebes, Pentheus is not ready to accept Dionysus as a God. However, I think the reading is meant to exhibit the rational vs. the emotional. (i.e. when your a king is the rational always the best decision?) Pentheus has a choice to make, whether altruism or paternalistic rationalism is the appropriate world view in which to guide his people. One isn't going to guide the average man away from self justified wine and orgies without some kind of repercussion.
ReplyDeletePentheus feels as though his rule as king is threatned by Dionysus. New forms of rites and practices of worship bring fear to Pentheus. Many are accepting Dionysus quickly and Pentheus is not one to accept things so eagerly, especially when he feels his rule is challenged. Pentheus' arrogance toward Dionysus may have some legitimate basis, but still he is a man where as Dionysus is a god. Challenging a god so quickly is not wise on Pentheus' part.
ReplyDeleteDionysus intentions for going to the city were to avenge his mothers death and honor. His anger and revenge was focused more towards Pentheus, because Pentheus was the one who told the city not to worship Dionysus as a god and Pentheus was the king.
ReplyDeletePentheus had the right to be skeptical about Dionysus. First, there was the situation with Semele dying in a fire with the baby. Second, was Dionysus as a new god, seeking recognition and worship from his mother’s family. At the same time, Dionysus was causing havoc in the city, the women were running wild. Pentheus as the ruler of the city did not like it one bit and that’s when the tension between both of them grew even thicker. In the book Pentheus the king of Thebes, feels embarrassed that this so called “new god” is causing chaos in his city. Pentheus sends his men to arrest Dionysus and torture him. Dionysus, on the other hand, feels disrespected once again and takes the necessary steps in eliminating Pentheus from the picture.
I think that Pentheus' unwillingness to worship the new god Dionysus is the unusual job of a leader. Communities throughou history have fallen victim to passing fads and cults and it is the duty of a wise leader to be protective and skeptic. I realize that my opinion is more of a modern world view of a leader, whereas the Greek world view would call upon a leader to act piously and blindly follow the will of the gods. However, I believe that Pentheus is merely doing his duty to his people to be skeptical of such outrageous forms of worship.
ReplyDeleteFor example, on the HBO serious "True Blood" there is a series of episodes in which a Maenad comes to their town and brings about the same kind of Dionysian worship. In this modern depiction of the extreme frenzies of hunting and ecstasy it is easy to understand why a leader would forbid his people from participating.
THis is a youtube link for some scenese from youtube in which the priestess of Dionysus in shown. The plot may not make sense but her extreme rituals will come through loud and clear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLXxacPs4E&feature=related
As human beings, it is easy to say that Pentheus is justified. He is the King of Thebes, the ruler of his people, it makes sense that he would not react calmly to the idea of a new god. He becomes angry when he sees his people worship and follow the new god. He is skeptical of who this Dionysus is. He is furious to see that the women are behaving shamefully, and blames Dionysus, "That womanly man, who with this new disease afflicts our matrons, and defiles their beds." He is horrified to see how his people are reacting to this new god.
ReplyDeleteAlthough this is totally understandable, being that he is king, he cannot be so easily justified for his reactions. Had he been wise, he would have listened to those such as Cadmus and Tiresias, who claim wisdom. Had he been wise, he may have gone out of his way to find out who this Dionysus was.
This is just my present opinion, which may change over the course of reading the full text.
The way Pentheus reacts to Dionysus as a God is justified because Pentheus feels threatened by Dionysus. Pentheus realizes that his kingdom is falling out of place. He feels in a sense threatened by Dionysus. He gets even more frustrated when he saw his grandfather and Tiresias dressed in bacchic style. It is understandable that Pentheus would like to have control of his kingdom and he feels that if his people follow Dionysus then his kingdom would be chaotic i.e. he would lose control. So, it is justified from the ruler point of view.
ReplyDeleteI think Pentheus' views of Dionysus are justified because any new form of religion or worship will always carry with it the possibility of challenging the ruling power. Dionysus's hubris is a good example as to why Pentheus act hostile towards the new movement. The form of worship Dionysus' followers practice is also much different from the traditional sacrifices usually performed. Followers of Dionysus become drunk and mad, so Pentheus has a justified fear of them.
ReplyDeleteOn top of probably having a jealous rage, Pentheus is threatened by Dionysus. Pentheus believes he's losing respect if he can't even control the women of his land. To make matters worse Dionysus persuades Pentheus' relatives, even his own mother to behave "inappropriately". I think this circumstance gives Pentheus reason to act as he did.
ReplyDeletePentheus could be justified in his view of Dionysus because Semele's family had said her child had died with her in the lightening strike. Therefore Pentheus believed this and probably thought the new stranger was a cult-like leader. Pentheus saw this new group acting immorally and against his codes which made them a threat.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with Pentheus being upset with Dionysus. Pentheus is King of Thebes and Dionysus is a controversial god who goes into Thebes acting like he is the most important figure in the country. Dionysus is obviously threatened. I don't think Dionysus is right to persecute the Bacchantes.
ReplyDeletePentheus is in a postion of great power, respect, and authority. Any action he makes will be considered by not only his people, but the gods. For him to worship someone who is not immortal, would greatly upset the true gods as it would be seen as idolotry. So in order for him to give Dionysus the respect he deserves, he must be absolutely certain. Dionysus comes off with arrogance and pursuades his people to do things that could easily be criticized. This new practice understandably comes off as a threat to Pentheus.
ReplyDeleteWith great power, always comes a threat to this power. This is the problem that Pentheus is encountered with when Dionysus comes to Thebes attempting to sell himself as a significant figure worthy of worship, aiming most of his attention toward the women. Pentheus is the king of Thebes and his power is threatened by Dionysus. His anger is justified by the fear of losing control over his people. However, his anger gets the best of him and, as Chris Joseph stated, his pride and ego are a major influence on his actions. By imprisoning Dionysus Pentheus is attempting to remove this threat. Very similar to Prometheus' situation in Prometheus Bound.
ReplyDeletePentheus is a king given the task of protecting his people and honoring his God. Suddenly, because some stranger, Dionysus, comes into the picture (boasting with arrogance, and in some manners, disrespect)Pentheus is supposed to forget everything that he knows? Once the people rallied around Dionysus, then yes, perhaps Pentheus should have come around to the will of the people- like any good leader. I just think at that point Pentheus had had enough. Once you factor in what Dionysus "encouraged" Pentheus's family to partake in...its quite clear why Pentheus reacted why he did. I don't think this situation can be put into any rational aspects, at least from Pentheus' point of view, so attempting to justify or criticize his actions is pointless.
ReplyDeleteOn one hand Pentheus's actions and his distrust of this "new god" is completely reasonable. Dionysus does not come across as one to be trusted, nor does the manner in which he is worshiped seem acceptable. On the other hand, their may be a greater universal code against questioning your own mothers actions. This is undoubtably a difficult situation for a leader, witch makes it understandable why Pentheus is so defensive.
ReplyDeletePentheus' actions in this section of The Bacchae do come of as arrogant because of his total lack of foresight. He does not pay any attention to his people or their actions and certainly does not take them into mind. If Pentheus were to take his people and their actosn into mind he would have noticed and realized that Dionysus was in fact real, through the madness of the women and the other people acting on the bacchant rituals. Although Pentheus does not know for certain if Dionysus is real, I believe that he completely wrote off this idea before exploring it to the depths that would insure certainty. Because of this I do not believe that Pentheus' arrogance is completely acceptable.
ReplyDeletePantheus' reaction to dionysus' actions are justifiable in some sense. The way in which Dionysus approaches the situation and demands to be worshipped dos not come off as trustworthy. The way he disguises himself at first then asks for everyone to believe him right away with little explanation , especially to Pantheus, would seem suspicious and therefore it is not completely unreasonable for Pantheus to resist.
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ReplyDeleteIn view of Euripides' logical and humanistic position throughout all his dramas, however, it would seem most probable that such assimilations contain some truth, but that both are largely reduced in complexity. For instance, on one stance, one can agree that Pentheus is not an evil king, but in the same degree he is foolish in his refusal to accept guidance from his elders, and consequently his complete reliance on his own reason. His persistence in destroying the cult is a rejection of one powerful aspect of man's nature; Dionysus symbolizes a force— man's animal nature which must be evaluated. It is also true that Agave is banished, but by Dionysus himself, against whom she has transgressed; and her offense may not be in worshiping him (speaking impartially, although from a Christian perspective that interpretation would alter), but rather in perverting her devotion by going to the extreme lengths that lead to the sacrifice of her own son. Ultimately, it appears that Euripides is arguing for moderation in all things. Sole reasoning, which denies the animal element in man, carries into destruction just as pure sensuality released without reasonable control does.
ReplyDeleteMary Mena