So after reading the entirety of the Bacchae and discussing the various concepts like gender, human nature, power, freedom and the roles we are given and make for ourselves in society, tell me in a few sentences the moral of the story. What is the identity we can safely assign to this text?
Personally I have always found the Bacchae to be one of the most disturbing tragedies. In fact, the first time I read it, with its gruesome finale along with its stunning portrayal of Dionysus and his followers, I was initially struck by the thought that perhaps Aristotle had been correct in accessing whether such tragedies were meant to be mediums of psychic purification. In the merciless destruction of the ruler of Thebes, his family and finally the city itself we are indeed brought to our knees, forced to fear the divine, this unforgiving god, and pity those hapless fools who followed the relentlessly stubborn Pentheus to his demise. Moreover, both Pentheus and Dionysus seem to be monsters rather than heroes. In this regard I tend to think Nietzsche may have been correct in regarding Euripides as the murderer of tragedy, as the one who utilizes irony, the character of Dionysus and the literary tool of "role reversal" not to affirm suffering in spite of itself, but to destroy the hope that tragic heroes like Prometheus are intended to instill in the other characters of the play as well as the audience. What in the end is purified by the end of this show? Are there really any winners? Does the good prevail? I tend to regard this as the perfect “swan song” for tragedy, where the meaning or aim of theater is itself questioned as the monstrous nature of both man and god are brought to the fore.
See you soon guys,
Dr. Layne
I think the moral of the story is that arrogance diminishes wisdom. Euripides places a high value on piety. On the other hand, if one replaces the gods with a mirror, such as Pentheus, there will be a price to pay.
ReplyDeleteThe winners are those who are able to break their social construct, even if it is just for a little while. Revelry is purified, the girls aren't having orgies, they are having a good time and they consequently gain the reader's sympathy. Though I would not be quick to say that they are the winners.
I think the moral of the story is that life should have both control and freedom. We are almost controlled by our society’s standard to up hold a certain gender role but we still have the freedom to decide on our own identity. Pentheus didn’t want the women or anyone else to be in control of their own identity and so he was threatened by Dionysus. Dionysus is the god of wine and causes everyone to break free from the norm of society’s control. I also think that in the end Dionysus didn't destroy Pentheus for Thebes, but he did it for his own selfish reason. He is as guilty as Pentheus for wanting power and control, Dionysus was just smarter than him.
ReplyDeleteI think the moral of this story is not to judge people too quickly. Pentheus, out of his arrogance, believed the priest was a fake god or just another mortal man. Because he thought the Bacchae’s were just a bunch of hooligans, he did not even try to understand them. The worst mistake he made was when he forcibly brought Dionysus to him and shaved of the Gods curls. This later became a fatal mistake for Pentheus because Dionysus sent him to the Maenads who mutilated him. If Pentheus had investigated more deeply into the cult he may have come to the conclusion that Dionysus is a god.
ReplyDeleteThe moral of this story quite complicated. Pentheus was arrogant during his regime and lost power to women, who he thought were weak. I believe that this story could mean do not under estimate your opponent or the possiblities. Pentheus under estimated women and Dionysus. Pentheus doesn't really learn anything other than seeing the opposite side, women, while in drag. Pentheus being teared apart limb by limb may illustrate what arrogance can lead to. I find it quite comical that Tiresias, the blind and elderly prophet, is the only character unharmed.
ReplyDeleteI think the moral of the story is about a balance of pride and rationality. Pentheus brought his fate upon him because he was consumed with pride and didn't stop to think about the consequences that could come as a result of his actions. He was arrogant and was initially filled with so much rage towards Dionysus that he made rash decisions on how to handle it. I would agree that Pentheus underestimated the maenads and Dionysus, he thought he was so powerful because he was "King Pentheus" and didn't even imagine that he could be as gruesomely killed as he was.
ReplyDeleteI can’t honestly say there is a real moral in Bacchae, the way most readers would like to expect in literature. Especially for a Greek play—most of which tend to be populated with morals against the evil of hubris or the benefit of honor—Bacchae seems to defy a lot of expectations. The voice-of-reason character, Pentheus, whom the reader would naturally expect to conquer the chaos arise in Thebes, submits to his own curiosity. It’s the twice-born, vindictive god Dionysius who gets his way in the play. His character represents a sort of dualism; a point I realized in class Wednesday, when we were discussing the characteristics of men and women, is that Dionysius subtly combines the two genders, apparent by his dual birth. He was born by both a female and a male—Zeus is as much his mother as his father. This is was a huge red flag to me that Dionysius is a representation of both genders. The moral I would like to project on the play is that a city, society, community, etc. will crumble without a fair balance of male and female influence. The same could be said for a balance of law and freedom, of reason and emotional/physical rule. Dionysius is maybe the balanced character, so he is the only character in the play who gets what he wants.
ReplyDeleteI think that the moral of this story is that it is important to have balance. To be extremely controlling, like Pentheus, is irrational. To be extremely free, like Dionysus, can lead to confusion. Freedom is important, but it is also a responsibility, and that is why there are important laws set up. Freedom without the balance of laws can result in chaos, but laws without the balance of freedom can cause uprisings. Obviously, Pentheus and Dionysus would not be able to find a balance because what they represent are so opposite of each other.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you when you say that the Bacchae is indeed a very disturbing tragedy. However in terms of what the moral of the story is I'm not quite sure if I can truly make that out. At first I was leaning towards Dionysus being the protagonist and so I figured that Pentheus who seemed to represent an extreme emulation of control was what Euripides was commenting against. However by the end of the play we see just what the excess of absolutely no control can do to a person. Dionysus uses the women in his cult as a means of exacting revenge on Pentheus and ultimately he suceeds but the Women (Pentheus's mother in particular) were unwittingly led in to murder because they were not able to retain any self control. Therefore if there is any lesson to be learned from this play then it is probably to find a balance between these two extremes so that we may neither be led in to helplessness nor be controlled by those who may want to do us harm.
ReplyDeleteThe Bacchae has no one main moral.
ReplyDeleteOne could make the case that while women should be allowed some liberations, men should remain in positions of power; Pentheus's downfall came when Dionysus gave him the idea of dressing like a woman in order to enter the cult. The women were embracing life and helping breastfeed animals and were spared, but Pentheus was killed simply because he didn't give enough though into his crossdressing.
The moral of the story seems to be that no one man can have all the power. Even when appointed as ruler, the people of the kingdom/nation/state etc. have the final say on their own governance. If the people feel their leader is no longer leading them in a direction they would like to go, then he will be overthrown (or in this case, ripped to shreds).
ReplyDeleteI would have to say that the moral of the story would be to resist the temptation to presume or judge someone such as a foreigner, especially when that person has different views or perceptions from you about ideals and values. Pentheus definitely judges and undermines Dionysus's outlook on woman and does everything he can to ridicule it until he learns more of it, becoming almost intoxicated with curiosity. But i dont think there are any true winners or heroes in this play because both main characters do not gain any significant benefit or advantage over the other such as additional knowledge or power.
ReplyDeleteDuring the whole story there is a struggle between control and freedom. I think the moral of the story is that to be able to live a fairly normal life there needs to be balance between both society and nature. I think without proper balance everything would just fall apart and nothing good would ever come from it.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the moral of the story is that nothing is as it seems. Just as you think you've won, in reality your losses are there as well. there are various elements that suggest a power struggle, domination, freedom, and generalizing/stereotyping, but in the end, sometimes it may not be best to always be against everything while at the same time it is important to stand your ground.
ReplyDeleteI think the moral of the story is that people deserve to have freedom to relax and party. Although having order is a good thing it helps to break away from order and release any tension a person is feeling. Women seemed to enjoy the parties more because it gave them more freedom than they usually had during this time period because they were usually restricted to their homes. The story also teaches that you should not judge a person based on appearance or personality. Pentheus did this to Dionysus when they first met and it eventually led the way to his death.
ReplyDeleteIt may just be my outlook on life that leads me to think this way, but I believe the moral of the story has to do with societal restraints and the freedom one needs to survive in such a society. It's not to say that structure and order has no importance in society but rather that a release from such order is necessary. In the story the struggle between the Dionysian lifestyle and Pentheus' structured, law bound society is eminent. Pentheus fails to accept the Dionysian lifestyle and in the end he is literally torn apart by his own mother. I think the outrageous behavior of the bacchants and others who accept the Dionysian lifestyle speaks to the fact that these women were bound by societal restraints for so long. When given the opportunity to be free of such restraints the women let go of everything they had been holding back for years. Although their behavior is violent and over-the-top, it is also cathartic to the women. Similarly, the play in itself is cathartic. With it's raw and gruesome nature the reader cannot help but address the issues that arose, as they are seemingly thrown in your face.
ReplyDeleteThe Bacchae presents the reader with the idea of people's reaction to change and how those people shift so quickly. Maybe Euripides is showing us how quickly people evolve and how citizens change their mind with some influence. It is proven throughout the book first the women, later Pentheus. We also see this throughout history when comparing peoples ideas of the status quo 100 years ago and now.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to narrow the many different themes of this story into just one moral. If I had to decide what a moral for this story is I would have to say that it is necessary to have a balance in life and to not be so quick to judge. For example, initially Pentheus is constantly taunting and criticizing Dionysus and his view on women. When Pentheus then gets a taste of women’s nature, he is immediately consumed with curiosity. The balance part of the moral comes into play throughout the whole story. Dionysus is almost too free, leading to chaos while Pentheus is so controlling it literally kills him.
ReplyDeleteBalance is the key to life, which is the moral of the story. Without balance in society there will always be chaos through either too much control or too much freedom. Pentheus is the king of Thebes and wants full control over everything. There needs to be a balance of society and nature for society to persevere. Pentheus denies this balance, which leads to chaos and his destruction. Pentheus’ mother is overcome with madness and kills her son. This story expresses the vital need of balance.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the moral of the story is that all people, male or female, need balance in their lives. Whereas Pentheus initially demonstrates an obsession with order and reason, Dionysus and his followers are examples of an opposite extreme. Further, in the Bacchae the women are perhaps drawn to Dionysus as an escape from the confines of their places in society in Thebes--there their lives are narrowly defined and probably far from balancing pleasure and freedom with work and womanly duties. By the end of the play, tragedy ensues. I feel that this is meant to be a lesson that living an unbalanced life can lead to extreme behavior and consequences. The oppression of people's natural desire to 'let loose' may work to maintain order for a time, but it may eventually backfire and cause chaos like we see in the Bacchae.
ReplyDeleteThe moral of the story is to strive for balance between the two forces of control and freedom. Pentheus and Dionysus represent the extremes of each. Pentheus is the representation of control with his strict laws and controlled environment. He gets angry when the women under Dionysus act wildly and leave their duties behind. He even chastises his own family due to their actions. His resistance to accepting anything out of his control leads to his demise in a very tragic and brutal death at the hands of his own mother.
ReplyDeleteDionysus therefore represents complete freedom and wildness. This can be seen in the way the maenads act under him. This force completely also fails because although the women seem "free", they do not act as they should. Pentheus's mother kills her own son in this mindset. The moral is to balance the two forces so that neither overtake the other completely.
There is not a single defining moral of the story. This text, like most works of literature, is multilayered and makes a comment on more than one aspect of the ancient greek code of ethics. Through The Bacchae, Euripides shows the negative outcomes of having too much pride in oneself, as well as the perils of living within an extreme. Pentheus, as a result of his pride and hubris, is stripped of a defining aspect of his identity (his masculinity), and is ultimately ripped apart. Pentheus also suffers because he allows no deviation from his idea of a perfect and rational kingdom. He condemns any activity, particularly those done in worship of Dionysus, that has no reason behind it. Because of his stubborn resistance, Pentheus is blinded to the presence of a god, which also leads to his death. On the flip side, the maenads become completely consumed by their worship of Dionysus, and cease to operate according any sort of reason or order. Living within this extreme drives the women mad, and they are unable to even stop themselves from killing their own king (and in Agave's case her own child).
ReplyDeleteI believe that the moral of this story is to not think of oneself as above the gods. Pentheus bans the worship of Dionysus in Thebes but at the end of the story, Dionysus shows that he has power over Pentheus by causing Pentheus' death. Dionysus at first is very patient with Pentheus and trys to get Pentheus to realize his divinty but Pentheus is stubborn and prideful and will not admit to the divinty of Dionysus. Dionysus proves to Pentheus at the end of the play that his power is completely over Pentheus and nothing can save Pentheus from Dionysus' revengeful power not even the human bond between a mother and son.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the moral of the story is about balance. Dionysus ruins a whole people just to satisfy his own personal craving for vengence. Pentheus is so conversative that he opens himself up to be easily allured when the women begin to act wild and free. The women are so wild and free that Pentheus' mother doesnt even realize that she kills her son. None of these people display balance, and their unhappiness makes the need for it all so obvious.
ReplyDeleteI think that the moral of this story has a lot to do with the one thing that intrigues people the most- Mystery. Dionysus introduces this new ideal among the women of Thebes and with its mystery came curiosity. This curiosity ended in madness of pleasure. As humans we innately strive to know things we currently do not, or experience things we have not previously experienced. Pentheus is intrigued by the mystery surrounding the women of Thebes which leads him to forfeit his masculinity and dress as a woman to be able to witness their violent madness. This ultimately leads to him being killed. I also believe however, that stubborness is a contributing factor of all characters in this play. With that said I believe there are no winners, only individuals who are ignorant to reality.
ReplyDeleteThe moral of the story from my point of view was that there should be a balance between control and freedom. There is Pentheus who represents the control in Bacchae and Dionysus who represents the freedom. When there is too much control in a society, people tend to rebel. Also, if you give people too much freedom, they tend to take advantage of the situation and act on their own. Thus losing all source of law and order. The story shows the consequences of what could happen at the extremes of both.
ReplyDeleteWhether prince or plebe, we are all human. Its good to remember this most important of life's lessons...
ReplyDeleteBe weary of personal arrogance. Pentheus seems to be so caught up in his own feelings that he can't seem to get over himself and his position, and that causes him to make mistakes, that with proper reasoning and humbleness, he might not have made. These errors come to fruition when Pentheus "visits" the Maenads...
I thought it was interesting how Agave and the maenads were used as far as gender roles go, becoming the hunters, becoming the more powerful element. The way they rip up Pentheus by his limbs seems to reflect the struggle women face in society against it's laws and rules concerning them. The bacchanals were an interesting metaphor for this struggle, and this hidden resentment, which would usually continue on silently but as we all know when you become drunk or unhinged the truth has a way of seeping out, even if it becomes more explosive and overblown. Agave describes feeling more lucid and clear minded when she comes to her senses, as if something was coming off her shoulders. I think this is indicative not only of her snapping back to reality but to the catharsis we spoke of in class on the first day that bacchanalian celebrations tend to allow. I can't say much for the moral, from what I gather it is something pertaining to hubris. Perhaps Pentheus should have accepted these orgies instead of holding fast to his ideals order, his ideals of how a female should act. Perhaps under estimating feminine own potency is what earned him his gruesome fate.
ReplyDeleteThis story is a tragic case of two extremes. Although at first the freedom of wildness and passion seems virtuous, especially when considering the lack of respect given to women in Greek society. But as we see both Pentheus and the worshipers of Dionysus become more and more extreme, to the point of role reversal and then murder, the moral becomes clear. Society must find a balance between the illusion of law and the power of freedom. While they are both contradicting in some sense, they need each other to be correctly appreciated.
ReplyDeleteEuripides’ play strives to solve the challenge of whether or not the irrational can be contained within a well-structured and ordered space, interior or exterior. The Bacchae portrays a resistance to the death between the joint forces of self control (restraint) and freedom (release), and allows Dionysus to respond to this inquiry. The god's implicit message delivers that not only is there space within society for the irrational, but that such a space must be existent for that society’s prosperity and survival. By renouncing or opposing the irrational, as did Pentheus, the individual or the society that proposes conflict against it, will be torn apart. The story of Pentheus and Thebes demonstrates the necessity of discipline, discretion, balance, and wisdom in eluding the twin extremes of the tyranny of order and the ferocious hysteria of collective passion.
ReplyDeleteThe play amends the significance of maintaining fundamental balances in one's social and natural life in the following ways: Dionysus takes two forms on stage, Pentheus depicts his double, and they switch roles in during the play. Cadmus and Tiresias are a pair, contrasted by the Bacchic chorus and the mad women of Thebes. There are established dualities, such as the chorus in opposed to the main action of the drama, the events conveyed in alternative to the events enacted. Lastly, thematic dualities are vigorously attributed. The wild mountain is distinguished from the walled city; the mortal denies the divine, men against women, and the irrational versus the rational.
Mary Mena